Here is the letter that Andrew Ritchie wrote.

Web ticket booking - denial of Statutory Rights

Hi,

I have an issue with a journey booked on 25th September for travel on 19th October 2012.

Having booked on line and paid £36 to travel from Lichfield Trent Valley to London Euston, I was told that my tickets would be sent by first class post to me within 5 days. They did not arrive.

I spoke to Customer Services (Caroline, supervisor) and was told that:

1) They had dispatched the tickets because their computer said so.
2) They considered this to be proof of postage although they were not prepared to send me that proof so that I can pursue the matter with the delivery agent (Royal Mail).
3) Because I had not used a more expensive courier service to deliver the tickets, they would not reprint or resend therefore the money I paid was not refundable and I would have to buy more tickets if I want to travel this coming Friday.
4) I was not allowed to escalate the issue further because Caroline considered the case closed.
5) I was told that if I had a complaint, I should put it in writing and send it to a PO Box number in Birmingham

This is, to my mind, illegal and immoral because;

1) I only have Caroline's word that the tickets were ever sent (and having spoken to other people who have fallen into this situation with London Midland, I do not believe her without evidence.
2) The money paid was in respect of provision of a service - namely to transport me to London - this forms a contract under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
3) This Act forms part of my "statutory rights" as a consumer and is therefore not negated by ANY terms and conditions (implicit or explicit) on the London Midland website.
4) I have asked for the tickets to be sent to me "again" to enable London Midland to resolve the failure to complete the Contract of sale in a timely manner (ie. before the travel due date) but they have declined.
5) instead they have directed me through a route which they know will allow the date of travel to pass - effectively forcing me to abandon any attempt to help them fulfil the contract.
6) They have therefore failed to make a reasonable attempt to resolve the apparent breach of contract.
7) Having got nowhere with the Customer Services Supervisor, I spoke to the Complaints Department at the Customer Services Team (Spoke to Andrew - who told me he was the only Andrew in the department) and, after I explained the situation, he discussed it with his supervisor who said that the Website terms and conditions meant that they were not liable despite there being no evidence that the tickets were ever sent.
8) I asked to speak to the supervisor who had taken this decision but I was declined.
9) I was referred back to the Customer Services Team Supervisor who had already told me that she considered the case closed.
10) In all of this, I simply want the contract to be fulfilled and my tickets to be sent to me. I have placed no claim for remuneration or compensation at this stage

While on the phone to both Caroline and Andrew, I got teh distinct impression that this was an occurrence that they were very familiar dealing with. I wonder how many times this situation comes about each year because it seems that this is just money in the bag for London Midland.

If this scenario was played out at London Midland only 75 times each day (for tickets of this approximate value), then they would make an extra £1000,000 a year in clear profit. Are there other people out there who have experienced this?

I am guessing that a company the size of London Midland will have legal reporting obligations so that the frequency of this kind of issue is visible to the public??

The long and the short though; I just want my tickets!

Andy Ritchie

Hi,

I have an issue with a journey booked on 25th September for travel on 19th October 2012.

Having booked on line and paid £36 to travel from Lichfield Trent Valley to London Euston, I was told that my tickets would be sent by first class post to me within 5 days. They did not arrive.

I spoke to Customer Services (Caroline, supervisor) and was told that:

1) They had dispatched the tickets because their computer said so.
2) They considered this to be proof of postage although they were not prepared to send me that proof so that I can pursue the matter with the delivery agent (Royal Mail).
3) Because I had not used a more expensive courier service to deliver the tickets, they would not reprint or resend therefore the money I paid was not refundable and I would have to buy more tickets if I want to travel this coming Friday.
4) I was not allowed to escalate the issue further because Caroline considered the case closed.
5) I was told that if I had a complaint, I should put it in writing and send it to a PO Box number in Birmingham

I believe this to be both illegal and immoral because;

1) I only have Caroline's word that the tickets were ever sent (and having spoken to other people who have fallen into this situation with London Midland, I do not believe her without evidence.
2) The money paid was in respect of provision of a service - namely to transport me to London - this forms a contract under the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
3) This Act forms part of my "statutory rights" as a consumer and is therefore not negated by ANY terms and conditions (implicit or explicit) on the London Midland website.
4) I have asked for the tickets to be sent to me "again" to enable London Midland to resolve the failure to complete the Contract of sale in a timely manner (ie. before the travel due date) but they have declined.
5) instead they have directed me through a route which they know will allow the date of travel to pass - effectively forcing me to abandon any attempt to help them fulfil the contract.
6) They have therefore failed to make a reasonable attempt to resolve the apparent breach of contract.
7) Having got nowhere with the Customer Services Supervisor, I spoke to the Complaints Department at the Customer Services Team (Spoke to Andrew - who told me he was the only Andrew in the department) and, after I explained the situation, he discussed it with his supervisor who said that the Website terms and conditions meant that they were not liable despite there being no evidence that the tickets were ever sent.
8) I asked to speak to the supervisor who had taken this decision but I was declined.
9) I was referred back to the Customer Services Team Supervisor who had already told me that she considered the case closed.
10) In all of this, I simply want the contract to be fulfilled and my tickets to be sent to me. I have placed no claim for remuneration or compensation at this stage

While on the phone to both Caroline and Andrew, I got the distinct impression that this was an occurrence that they were very familiar dealing with. I wonder how many times this situation comes about each year because it seems that this is just money in the bag for London Midland.

If this scenario was played out at London Midland only 75 times each day (for tickets of this approximate value), then they would make an extra £1000,000 a year in clear profit. Are there other people out there who have experienced this?

I am guessing that a company the size of London Midland will have legal reporting obligations so that the frequency of this kind of issue is visible to the public??

Can you advise if my understanding of this situation is correct please?

Thanks
Andy Ritchie

Hello

I have pointed their Twitter teams nose towards this.

You can also have a discussion with Passenger Focus who are the rail complaints watchdog

http://www.passengerfocus.org.uk/

Kind regards

Although one should always be wary of taking advice from someone who says 'I am not a lawyer, but...' I am not a lawyer but I have a funny feeling that in contract law (much of which is case based precedent, not statute) the act of posting has a particular significance - so if they say they have posted (they don't need proof, but it is helpful) and you can't prove that they haven't, then they have delivered their obligation by providing the ticket to an agreed agent.

see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_rule

you could write to the post master for the district in which their ticketing operation is based and make a complaint and see if there have been others

now the above may not strictly apply here, but it is contextual

also worth a look at the conditions of carriage etc that might have a bearing here

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

All of the above of course does not excuse a modern customer service company for providing poor service and leaving you a dis-satisfied customer

Hi William,

Thanks for this. It is a fair point but I'm really looking at this from the point of view of; I've paid to travel to London, and I'm told I can't without paying again and I can't get a refund.

For me, the key is actually "what" is being bought. I am not paying £36 for the piece of paper which says "ticket" on it but for the provision of the service. In this case the £36 is for transport to London - not the piece of paper which enables the operator to verify that the cost of travel has been paid. I'd argue that having paid my £36, I can demonstrate that I have the right to travel under a service provision contract. I asked Caroline at London Midland this and she helpfully said "If you travel without a ticket, you'll be prosecuted" (Missed her calling in the Diplomatic Corp). With this threat, I cannot risk travelling without the ticket despite having actually paid for the travel.

London Midland have now responded to let me know that they're experiencing a high level of correspondence so they may not be able to get back to me within the 10 days that they actually set themselves. (I have to travel in 4 days!)

This is a bit of a farce really but the auto signature at the end of their message which says "Buy tickets for any UK rail journey - with no booking fee - at www.londonmidland.com" raised an ironic smile with me.

Hi Andrew,

I have had a similar issue with London Midland, I actually book several tickets for my girlfriend (she lives in London, whilst I live in Manchester) through londonmidland.com and decided on the first class option to her flat in London. Needless to say they didn't turn up before she was going to travel on her first journey so as the buyer I rang the “lovely” people at london midland and asked them to send them again, they refused so I asked for a refund and they said without the tickets I couldn't get a refund. After some heated discussions with their team up in Aberdeen, where basically they don't listen to you quote the Sales of Goods Act, Distance Selling Regulations etc at them and just generally talk over you that you have agreed to their terms and therefore its your fault as the buyer for not heeding their advise and paying for recorded delivery and Royal Mail's fault for not delivering it. I phoned again the next day (after being promised a call back from a supervisor which never happened) to be told this again after saying I would take further action if I wasn't given a refund. I then called the customer service them and asked for a proof of postage certificate, they told me that they don't get them unless its a recorded or special service so I said that they had absolutely no proof that these tickets had been posted so I was entitled by law to a refund, but they told me to contact the ticket team which I thought would be a waste of time having spent the last two afternoons talking with them. I instead contacted the Citizen Advice Bureau (very good move) who basically alluded to William Perrin said about the Law of Contract (Statutory Rights). They give advice on how to write the correct letter to them that should basically get me a refund on these tickets, and failing that to contact my bank (debit/credit card issuer) and get a charge back. I have also contacted my bank to see what I needed to do in this eventuality and they told me that London Midland needed to prove proof of postage which they can't and some sort of correspondence that they would not offer a refund then they could act on that. I have sent the letter off (recorded delivery) and know it turned up the next day. I phoned the following day to see how long it would take and they told me that they where dealing with mail from the 2nd October that day (this was the 9th November) and letters are responded in date order. I asked the guy on the phone (who was very helpful and the only guy and London Midland who actually knew they where in the wrong) if there was a way of speeding it up and he said try sending a message to their twitter profile saying its urgent and needs fast attention. As of 15th November I haven't heard anything and have come across your problem when going through fix my transport.

Hope this can help you get your money back.

On a side issue, my tickets cost over £60, and from what I have read online and the various pieces of the law that as Royal Mail only issue up to £39 and the seller (in this case London Midland) are obliged to at no extra cost to the buyer (me in this case) issue the cost of tickets for the correct amount, therefore they should have sent the tickets on a recorded service with additional insurance. Please could anyone shed any more on this?